Saying this is looking at it the wrong way. I think you may have misunderstood me somewhat. I don't really care if things are proven or disproven - this isn't something I want or need to happen in order to feel some level of conclusiveness. In general, I 'm the sort to like concrete, tangible things to believe in, so I'm certainly curious, but I definitely don't think that some kind of scientific thing to point at will validate, or invalidate, my or others' experiences. I hope that clarifies things.
The question isn't whether or not the dragon is there; it's why acting as though it is there is beneficial to people. And the goal isn't to bring the people in question to a hypothetical normative state, in which they no longer have to imagine dragons in their homes in order to feel comfortable. It's to help them feel comfortable. I agree. As I mentioned, there are things that are "dragonish" to me - my therianthropy functions rather like that, even though I guess at a psychological explanation in my case. I think it's fine that people need dragons and I have no interest in eradicating them for others - sometimes beliefs help us function - most of us have them, and I would not want to take that away.
The people who imagine the dragons are right to feel threatened by inquiry which seeks to rule them out, because the people who conduct inquiry with that object in mind don't value their well-being. They just want to get rid of dragons. I disagree with some of this. I don't think inquiry is always intended to rule out or get rid of the dragons. Sometimes, surely, but not always. Someone interested in scientific inquiry isn't always wanting to "get rid of the dragons" - they might be interested in why the dragons are there, what makes the dragons, and so forth. For some people, the scientific explanation is a dragon in itself - having seen several other people talk about the sense of spirituality and mystery they feel about scientific discoveries or processes, I would say it's rather unfair to assume that inquiry is intended to rule out all sense of mystery. The closest thing I have felt to "spiritual experience" has been about the process of evolution and the variety of living things on this planet, and I would be pretty upset if someone thought that just because I like tangible evidence, I must also seek to get rid of the wondrous or mysterious. However, I definitely see what you mean about people who do aggressively wish to rule out the spiritual or mysterious and prove to others that their beliefs are stupid or pointless. I agree that forcing people away from beliefs (that are not harming other people - I can't stress that enough) is cruel and selfish. It's what so many missionaries have done throughout history, and clearly we have seen the damaging effects of that. So, on to your next point:
Conversely, the only ways I can imagine feeling threatened by other people's imaginary dragons are if the people imagining them have caused me material harm based on their beliefs, or if I don't want to face the possibility that the dragons are real on some level. Well, there are certainly plenty of beliefs out there that do cause material harm to other people or creatures - that can't be ignored. If someone imagines their dragon to wish me harm because of something about me, I'm going to feel threatened. There are people out there whose imaginary dragons want to take away my bodily autonomy, or who don't want me to get married to the person I love, for an easy example.
As to people not wanting to face the possibility of the dragons being real on some level - considering that many people's beliefs are opposing or in some way mutually exclusive to one another, to acknowledge that someone else's dragons are real can sometimes mean acknowledging one's own dragons are not. If, for example, the thing that makes one person feel comfortable, or their "dragon" is that there is nothing after death, then someone else's dragon, in the form of reincarnation, an afterlife, etc., invalidates the first person's dragon. So, I can see people threatened by other people's beliefs in this way: if you believe in something, and its truth necessitates that my belief is false, then the thing that makes me comfortable is taken away from me... so to protect my belief, I will try to disprove yours. (Here, I am using "I" and "you" to mean any two people, not yourself and myself - it was the best way I could structure it to be clear. Now I will go back to "I" meaning "yourdeer.") I think it sucks that people feel the need to go after and try to disprove other people's beliefs and can't just say, "Well, these are mine, those are yours, okay," but it does seem to be a cycle that's hard to break, especially when people start using words like "right" and "wrong." Heck, even your saying "This is the wrong way to go about it," got my hackles up a bit earlier, just because I think it's right for me even if it's not for you.
I personally experienced a crisis of belief in which I longed for my own "dragons" but didn't know how I could have them, and tried a lot of ways to rationalize their existence. I finally gave up and just decided to hold it as an axiom that they exist, and suddenly personal tests came back positive and attempts to communicate succeeded. See, I have also tried to figure out how to have my own "dragons" but I don't seem to be able to let them do what they do without some sort of rationale. What that rationale fully is, I haven't figured out yet, but I'm working on it. I think it's wonderful that people can suspend their rationale and just have their dragons, but it is not personally something that I am capable of in myself. My point is that not everyone can be at peace with themselves in just holding it as an axiom - I have tried and it just didn't work for me. I'm trying to figure out some way for them to exist, still, and I've been slowly working around the concept of "the ironic imagination" which has been helping me to A: understand my therianthropy (which I have figured out at least something of a rationale for), and B: create a system of semiotics that make me feel comfortable about things I do not feel comfortable about in a quasi-spiritual sort of way. The primary thing about that that is difficult, is reconciling that I can make something up, and it can be important and have real-life effects and function as a tool for getting through issues, even though it is consciously invented.
I think a lot could be said about this, but if we're going to be skeptical about it I suggest first questioning the reasons why we don't want to believe that reality works like this. Especially when it so clearly does. I'm sorry, I'm a little confused as to what you're referring to here - the article, my commentary? If you're saying that I don't want to believe that people often need irrational beliefs to be happy and at peace with the world and themselves, then you've misunderstood me, since I acknowledged a few times in my comment that sometimes we need to do those things, and that it is important and necessary. I don't mean to be defensive; I just am having a hard time figuring out what you seem to be chastising me for, here.
no subject
I think you may have misunderstood me somewhat. I don't really care if things are proven or disproven - this isn't something I want or need to happen in order to feel some level of conclusiveness. In general, I 'm the sort to like concrete, tangible things to believe in, so I'm certainly curious, but I definitely don't think that some kind of scientific thing to point at will validate, or invalidate, my or others' experiences. I hope that clarifies things.
The question isn't whether or not the dragon is there; it's why acting as though it is there is beneficial to people. And the goal isn't to bring the people in question to a hypothetical normative state, in which they no longer have to imagine dragons in their homes in order to feel comfortable. It's to help them feel comfortable.
I agree. As I mentioned, there are things that are "dragonish" to me - my therianthropy functions rather like that, even though I guess at a psychological explanation in my case. I think it's fine that people need dragons and I have no interest in eradicating them for others - sometimes beliefs help us function - most of us have them, and I would not want to take that away.
The people who imagine the dragons are right to feel threatened by inquiry which seeks to rule them out, because the people who conduct inquiry with that object in mind don't value their well-being. They just want to get rid of dragons.
I disagree with some of this. I don't think inquiry is always intended to rule out or get rid of the dragons. Sometimes, surely, but not always. Someone interested in scientific inquiry isn't always wanting to "get rid of the dragons" - they might be interested in why the dragons are there, what makes the dragons, and so forth. For some people, the scientific explanation is a dragon in itself - having seen several other people talk about the sense of spirituality and mystery they feel about scientific discoveries or processes, I would say it's rather unfair to assume that inquiry is intended to rule out all sense of mystery. The closest thing I have felt to "spiritual experience" has been about the process of evolution and the variety of living things on this planet, and I would be pretty upset if someone thought that just because I like tangible evidence, I must also seek to get rid of the wondrous or mysterious.
However, I definitely see what you mean about people who do aggressively wish to rule out the spiritual or mysterious and prove to others that their beliefs are stupid or pointless. I agree that forcing people away from beliefs (that are not harming other people - I can't stress that enough) is cruel and selfish. It's what so many missionaries have done throughout history, and clearly we have seen the damaging effects of that. So, on to your next point:
Conversely, the only ways I can imagine feeling threatened by other people's imaginary dragons are if the people imagining them have caused me material harm based on their beliefs, or if I don't want to face the possibility that the dragons are real on some level.
Well, there are certainly plenty of beliefs out there that do cause material harm to other people or creatures - that can't be ignored. If someone imagines their dragon to wish me harm because of something about me, I'm going to feel threatened. There are people out there whose imaginary dragons want to take away my bodily autonomy, or who don't want me to get married to the person I love, for an easy example.
As to people not wanting to face the possibility of the dragons being real on some level - considering that many people's beliefs are opposing or in some way mutually exclusive to one another, to acknowledge that someone else's dragons are real can sometimes mean acknowledging one's own dragons are not. If, for example, the thing that makes one person feel comfortable, or their "dragon" is that there is nothing after death, then someone else's dragon, in the form of reincarnation, an afterlife, etc., invalidates the first person's dragon. So, I can see people threatened by other people's beliefs in this way: if you believe in something, and its truth necessitates that my belief is false, then the thing that makes me comfortable is taken away from me... so to protect my belief, I will try to disprove yours. (Here, I am using "I" and "you" to mean any two people, not yourself and myself - it was the best way I could structure it to be clear. Now I will go back to "I" meaning "yourdeer.") I think it sucks that people feel the need to go after and try to disprove other people's beliefs and can't just say, "Well, these are mine, those are yours, okay," but it does seem to be a cycle that's hard to break, especially when people start using words like "right" and "wrong." Heck, even your saying "This is the wrong way to go about it," got my hackles up a bit earlier, just because I think it's right for me even if it's not for you.
I personally experienced a crisis of belief in which I longed for my own "dragons" but didn't know how I could have them, and tried a lot of ways to rationalize their existence. I finally gave up and just decided to hold it as an axiom that they exist, and suddenly personal tests came back positive and attempts to communicate succeeded.
See, I have also tried to figure out how to have my own "dragons" but I don't seem to be able to let them do what they do without some sort of rationale. What that rationale fully is, I haven't figured out yet, but I'm working on it. I think it's wonderful that people can suspend their rationale and just have their dragons, but it is not personally something that I am capable of in myself. My point is that not everyone can be at peace with themselves in just holding it as an axiom - I have tried and it just didn't work for me. I'm trying to figure out some way for them to exist, still, and I've been slowly working around the concept of "the ironic imagination" which has been helping me to A: understand my therianthropy (which I have figured out at least something of a rationale for), and B: create a system of semiotics that make me feel comfortable about things I do not feel comfortable about in a quasi-spiritual sort of way. The primary thing about that that is difficult, is reconciling that I can make something up, and it can be important and have real-life effects and function as a tool for getting through issues, even though it is consciously invented.
I think a lot could be said about this, but if we're going to be skeptical about it I suggest first questioning the reasons why we don't want to believe that reality works like this. Especially when it so clearly does.
I'm sorry, I'm a little confused as to what you're referring to here - the article, my commentary?
If you're saying that I don't want to believe that people often need irrational beliefs to be happy and at peace with the world and themselves, then you've misunderstood me, since I acknowledged a few times in my comment that sometimes we need to do those things, and that it is important and necessary. I don't mean to be defensive; I just am having a hard time figuring out what you seem to be chastising me for, here.