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avia(This is a public post, in case anyone wants to link to it. I thought it needed to be said in a wider space.)
Sorry for another post being grumpy about jarandhel, but I think this is something that needed to be pointed out.
I don't try to look at jarandhel's posts any more, but I do look at the Tumblrs of other therians/otherkin, and sometimes they reblog him. This discussion got my attention, and, particularly this part of it:
You know, I don't know much about how the trans* community started, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't do this because they wanted to play nice and sit around and wait until the Proper Medical Authorities noticed them. They didn't talk about things using the phrase "gender dysphoria" because they didn't have that language available to them. Not because it wasn't "the respectful thing to do".
I'm willing to bet most trans* activists didn't care about being respectful to the mainstream, because, when did it ever respect them? I'm sure those activists would feel sick, if they knew that they were being used as an example now, of how people should just wait politely to be recognized. They knew something was wrong, and they fought to be recognized. Fought.
And if trans* people didn't do some self-diagnosis, then probably they never would have been understood. Does jarandhel really think that the whole acceptance and understanding of trans* people was based on the medical community's work? I'm sure that trans* people actually did most of the work about understanding their selves, and the first time (and probably the 20th time, and the 200th time, and I'm sure it still happens today) that a trans* person went to a doctor or psychologist and explained their feelings, the doctor or psychologist looked at them strangely and said, "I don't know what to do about that". And so they were forced to find their own way, to understand their selves and then go back to the medical communities and say, "Doc. This is how I feel. This is what I need."
And say it again, again, until people listened.
Self-diagnosis is a tool of knowledge and empowerment. Do some people make mistakes in self-diagnosis? Of course, but a lot of doctors make mistakes in diagnosis too. And even if there are some false experiences with self-diagnosis, that's a small price to pay for the ability-- the right-- to educate our selves about our own bodies and our own health and to say, "I am the one who knows best about what is going on in my body." To use doctors and psychiatrists (who often like it when people come in knowing what's wrong with them! It makes their job easier) as assistants to help us get onto a path of wellness (or whatever path we want), not as gods who we are following blindly. To be able to understand our bodies without needing to pay the fees of doctors that many people can't afford. To be able to understand our bodies even before medical science cares about understanding them, which can often take many years after we notice something is wrong.
Look at transgender people for a moment - they didn't come along saying "I believe I have a neurological condition which results in me experiencing gender dysphoria". Because they didn't have those words and that power.
Don't we wish they had? In what world, in what totalitarian nightmare, do we think that it was a good thing that transgender people didn't have the words to describe their bodies and their experiences from the beginning?
And, now, in a world where those words exist, it doesn't seem sensible to start again from scratch.
Imagine a tornado is coming for your house. In days before people understood tornadoes, people might have said, "Huh. That's a big swirly pattern in the sky. I wonder if it means anything." Then, as time goes past, they might think, "It's getting closer. I really hope it isn't dangerous." And finally, while it is destroying their neighborhood, they think, "Okay, when that big swirly pattern happens, it's bad"... but of course, then, it's too late.
But that was before we knew about tornadoes. Now that we know, isn't it better, if we see a tornado, that we can think, "oh, that's probably a tornado, better get my family and run!" Even if we turn out to be wrong? Or, is it better to just stand there and think, "Well, that's a swirly pattern in the sky. I guess it could be something bad, but instead, I'm just going to stand here and wait until the weather service tells me. They know best, after all."
And then watch, as your house gets destroyed?
Sorry for another post being grumpy about jarandhel, but I think this is something that needed to be pointed out.
I don't try to look at jarandhel's posts any more, but I do look at the Tumblrs of other therians/otherkin, and sometimes they reblog him. This discussion got my attention, and, particularly this part of it:
Look at the transgendered for a moment - they didn’t come along saying “I believe I have a neurological condition which results in me experiencing gender dysphoria”. They said they felt trapped in the wrong body. Scientific and medical language was applied to their condition later, after proper study of the subject had been made. Not by trans individuals playing armchair psychologists and diagnosing themselves.
You know, I don't know much about how the trans* community started, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't do this because they wanted to play nice and sit around and wait until the Proper Medical Authorities noticed them. They didn't talk about things using the phrase "gender dysphoria" because they didn't have that language available to them. Not because it wasn't "the respectful thing to do".
I'm willing to bet most trans* activists didn't care about being respectful to the mainstream, because, when did it ever respect them? I'm sure those activists would feel sick, if they knew that they were being used as an example now, of how people should just wait politely to be recognized. They knew something was wrong, and they fought to be recognized. Fought.
And if trans* people didn't do some self-diagnosis, then probably they never would have been understood. Does jarandhel really think that the whole acceptance and understanding of trans* people was based on the medical community's work? I'm sure that trans* people actually did most of the work about understanding their selves, and the first time (and probably the 20th time, and the 200th time, and I'm sure it still happens today) that a trans* person went to a doctor or psychologist and explained their feelings, the doctor or psychologist looked at them strangely and said, "I don't know what to do about that". And so they were forced to find their own way, to understand their selves and then go back to the medical communities and say, "Doc. This is how I feel. This is what I need."
And say it again, again, until people listened.
Self-diagnosis is a tool of knowledge and empowerment. Do some people make mistakes in self-diagnosis? Of course, but a lot of doctors make mistakes in diagnosis too. And even if there are some false experiences with self-diagnosis, that's a small price to pay for the ability-- the right-- to educate our selves about our own bodies and our own health and to say, "I am the one who knows best about what is going on in my body." To use doctors and psychiatrists (who often like it when people come in knowing what's wrong with them! It makes their job easier) as assistants to help us get onto a path of wellness (or whatever path we want), not as gods who we are following blindly. To be able to understand our bodies without needing to pay the fees of doctors that many people can't afford. To be able to understand our bodies even before medical science cares about understanding them, which can often take many years after we notice something is wrong.
Look at transgender people for a moment - they didn't come along saying "I believe I have a neurological condition which results in me experiencing gender dysphoria". Because they didn't have those words and that power.
Don't we wish they had? In what world, in what totalitarian nightmare, do we think that it was a good thing that transgender people didn't have the words to describe their bodies and their experiences from the beginning?
And, now, in a world where those words exist, it doesn't seem sensible to start again from scratch.
Imagine a tornado is coming for your house. In days before people understood tornadoes, people might have said, "Huh. That's a big swirly pattern in the sky. I wonder if it means anything." Then, as time goes past, they might think, "It's getting closer. I really hope it isn't dangerous." And finally, while it is destroying their neighborhood, they think, "Okay, when that big swirly pattern happens, it's bad"... but of course, then, it's too late.
But that was before we knew about tornadoes. Now that we know, isn't it better, if we see a tornado, that we can think, "oh, that's probably a tornado, better get my family and run!" Even if we turn out to be wrong? Or, is it better to just stand there and think, "Well, that's a swirly pattern in the sky. I guess it could be something bad, but instead, I'm just going to stand here and wait until the weather service tells me. They know best, after all."
And then watch, as your house gets destroyed?
no subject
Date: 2013-04-21 10:27 pm (UTC)Also, a study that was done on furries. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.376188-Furries-Not-Entirely-Human Furries are not the same as therians, but the point is, about 25% of a group that you would expect to have a lot less species dysphoria than therians (because furry is just a roleplaying thing for a lot of people), talked about having it.
I actually do know some people who have (or had in the past) real body dysphoria about weight. Not just "society tells me that I should be thin to be attractive", but "I feel like I look right in the mirror when I am at X weight, and wrong when I am at Y weight". It's not anorexia, because an anorexic person never feels like they look right... but, a legitimate feeling that they are happy at a particular weight.
So, do they have the brain of an X weight person?
What also bothers me about Jarandhel's "science" is that it doesn't have any controls. How many people on trans* forums use the words "dysphoria" or "wrong body"? Telling people that the word "dysphoria" was used in X% of posts on a therian forum doesn't mean anything unless we have some others to compare it to... how often is it used on trans* forums, and how often is it used on forums that are not about trans* or therian issues?
Without that, you can't say what those numbers mean at all.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-21 11:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 01:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 03:59 pm (UTC)In point of fact, his "science" reminds me of WolfVanZandt's ramblings which sounded okay, until you dug deeper or had been in the community for more than 2 years. Wonder if they're related?
no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 12:01 am (UTC)I'm in an online support group for partners of FTMs and I have only heard a few instances of "trapped in the wrong body," though "dysphoria" gets mentioned very often as an experience. Granted, most people in that group are between about 18 and 35, so the experiences of older members of the trans community may not be represented... but that's what I've experienced in a group of about 200.
Agreed that Jarandhel's "science" seems mostly to take into account his experience or selective opinion rather than the broader truths concerning a community, as (again) evidenced by the commenter in the link.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 02:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 02:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 02:36 am (UTC)Another example of Jarandhel being shit at science.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 02:40 am (UTC)Also, when I checked, it looks like he is searching only for the words "dysphoria" and "wrong body". But there are a lot of different ways that people could talk about this, that don't use those words. For example, I might not say "wrong body" but "swan in a human body" or "I feel like I should have a different body" or "my body feels wrong", and none of those would appear in that search.
So it's really not scientific. For a very beginning, you would need to search every forum thread and list the discussions that actually talk about dysphoria using any language. Then, compare it with a transgender forum and a forum about completely unrelated topics.
And even then, it doesn't even matter, because what you can't deny is, some people experience it, and, is that not enough? It's like saying "if diabetes is more common than cancer, we should stop caring about cancer or trying to treat it".
Even if only 1% of therians have species dysphoria, it's still worth it to investigate, for those people. And right now, the numbers we are looking at, are a lot more than 1%.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-22 03:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-23 12:26 am (UTC)The point of the stupid statistics is simple: They look good. Jarandhel doesn't know how to make a real argument or conduct a real debate, he knows how to make propaganda. Marketing. It's actually quite similar to what I've seen in really bad arguments on Debate.Org, and in political campaigns.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-23 12:30 am (UTC)