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avia(This is a public post, in case anyone wants to link to it. I thought it needed to be said in a wider space.)
Sorry for another post being grumpy about jarandhel, but I think this is something that needed to be pointed out.
I don't try to look at jarandhel's posts any more, but I do look at the Tumblrs of other therians/otherkin, and sometimes they reblog him. This discussion got my attention, and, particularly this part of it:
You know, I don't know much about how the trans* community started, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't do this because they wanted to play nice and sit around and wait until the Proper Medical Authorities noticed them. They didn't talk about things using the phrase "gender dysphoria" because they didn't have that language available to them. Not because it wasn't "the respectful thing to do".
I'm willing to bet most trans* activists didn't care about being respectful to the mainstream, because, when did it ever respect them? I'm sure those activists would feel sick, if they knew that they were being used as an example now, of how people should just wait politely to be recognized. They knew something was wrong, and they fought to be recognized. Fought.
And if trans* people didn't do some self-diagnosis, then probably they never would have been understood. Does jarandhel really think that the whole acceptance and understanding of trans* people was based on the medical community's work? I'm sure that trans* people actually did most of the work about understanding their selves, and the first time (and probably the 20th time, and the 200th time, and I'm sure it still happens today) that a trans* person went to a doctor or psychologist and explained their feelings, the doctor or psychologist looked at them strangely and said, "I don't know what to do about that". And so they were forced to find their own way, to understand their selves and then go back to the medical communities and say, "Doc. This is how I feel. This is what I need."
And say it again, again, until people listened.
Self-diagnosis is a tool of knowledge and empowerment. Do some people make mistakes in self-diagnosis? Of course, but a lot of doctors make mistakes in diagnosis too. And even if there are some false experiences with self-diagnosis, that's a small price to pay for the ability-- the right-- to educate our selves about our own bodies and our own health and to say, "I am the one who knows best about what is going on in my body." To use doctors and psychiatrists (who often like it when people come in knowing what's wrong with them! It makes their job easier) as assistants to help us get onto a path of wellness (or whatever path we want), not as gods who we are following blindly. To be able to understand our bodies without needing to pay the fees of doctors that many people can't afford. To be able to understand our bodies even before medical science cares about understanding them, which can often take many years after we notice something is wrong.
Look at transgender people for a moment - they didn't come along saying "I believe I have a neurological condition which results in me experiencing gender dysphoria". Because they didn't have those words and that power.
Don't we wish they had? In what world, in what totalitarian nightmare, do we think that it was a good thing that transgender people didn't have the words to describe their bodies and their experiences from the beginning?
And, now, in a world where those words exist, it doesn't seem sensible to start again from scratch.
Imagine a tornado is coming for your house. In days before people understood tornadoes, people might have said, "Huh. That's a big swirly pattern in the sky. I wonder if it means anything." Then, as time goes past, they might think, "It's getting closer. I really hope it isn't dangerous." And finally, while it is destroying their neighborhood, they think, "Okay, when that big swirly pattern happens, it's bad"... but of course, then, it's too late.
But that was before we knew about tornadoes. Now that we know, isn't it better, if we see a tornado, that we can think, "oh, that's probably a tornado, better get my family and run!" Even if we turn out to be wrong? Or, is it better to just stand there and think, "Well, that's a swirly pattern in the sky. I guess it could be something bad, but instead, I'm just going to stand here and wait until the weather service tells me. They know best, after all."
And then watch, as your house gets destroyed?
Sorry for another post being grumpy about jarandhel, but I think this is something that needed to be pointed out.
I don't try to look at jarandhel's posts any more, but I do look at the Tumblrs of other therians/otherkin, and sometimes they reblog him. This discussion got my attention, and, particularly this part of it:
Look at the transgendered for a moment - they didn’t come along saying “I believe I have a neurological condition which results in me experiencing gender dysphoria”. They said they felt trapped in the wrong body. Scientific and medical language was applied to their condition later, after proper study of the subject had been made. Not by trans individuals playing armchair psychologists and diagnosing themselves.
You know, I don't know much about how the trans* community started, but I'm pretty sure that they didn't do this because they wanted to play nice and sit around and wait until the Proper Medical Authorities noticed them. They didn't talk about things using the phrase "gender dysphoria" because they didn't have that language available to them. Not because it wasn't "the respectful thing to do".
I'm willing to bet most trans* activists didn't care about being respectful to the mainstream, because, when did it ever respect them? I'm sure those activists would feel sick, if they knew that they were being used as an example now, of how people should just wait politely to be recognized. They knew something was wrong, and they fought to be recognized. Fought.
And if trans* people didn't do some self-diagnosis, then probably they never would have been understood. Does jarandhel really think that the whole acceptance and understanding of trans* people was based on the medical community's work? I'm sure that trans* people actually did most of the work about understanding their selves, and the first time (and probably the 20th time, and the 200th time, and I'm sure it still happens today) that a trans* person went to a doctor or psychologist and explained their feelings, the doctor or psychologist looked at them strangely and said, "I don't know what to do about that". And so they were forced to find their own way, to understand their selves and then go back to the medical communities and say, "Doc. This is how I feel. This is what I need."
And say it again, again, until people listened.
Self-diagnosis is a tool of knowledge and empowerment. Do some people make mistakes in self-diagnosis? Of course, but a lot of doctors make mistakes in diagnosis too. And even if there are some false experiences with self-diagnosis, that's a small price to pay for the ability-- the right-- to educate our selves about our own bodies and our own health and to say, "I am the one who knows best about what is going on in my body." To use doctors and psychiatrists (who often like it when people come in knowing what's wrong with them! It makes their job easier) as assistants to help us get onto a path of wellness (or whatever path we want), not as gods who we are following blindly. To be able to understand our bodies without needing to pay the fees of doctors that many people can't afford. To be able to understand our bodies even before medical science cares about understanding them, which can often take many years after we notice something is wrong.
Look at transgender people for a moment - they didn't come along saying "I believe I have a neurological condition which results in me experiencing gender dysphoria". Because they didn't have those words and that power.
Don't we wish they had? In what world, in what totalitarian nightmare, do we think that it was a good thing that transgender people didn't have the words to describe their bodies and their experiences from the beginning?
And, now, in a world where those words exist, it doesn't seem sensible to start again from scratch.
Imagine a tornado is coming for your house. In days before people understood tornadoes, people might have said, "Huh. That's a big swirly pattern in the sky. I wonder if it means anything." Then, as time goes past, they might think, "It's getting closer. I really hope it isn't dangerous." And finally, while it is destroying their neighborhood, they think, "Okay, when that big swirly pattern happens, it's bad"... but of course, then, it's too late.
But that was before we knew about tornadoes. Now that we know, isn't it better, if we see a tornado, that we can think, "oh, that's probably a tornado, better get my family and run!" Even if we turn out to be wrong? Or, is it better to just stand there and think, "Well, that's a swirly pattern in the sky. I guess it could be something bad, but instead, I'm just going to stand here and wait until the weather service tells me. They know best, after all."
And then watch, as your house gets destroyed?
no subject
Date: 2013-06-17 12:02 am (UTC)Personally I feel that it's difficult to decide what is ethical without knowing what is possible. And it's difficult to decide what is possible without research, and difficult to get research unless people know that there is a need for research.
I also think the ethics of doing it to a person who is willing and even desperate to have this experience, someone who might feel that the alternative is suicide, are complicated. It is possible that someone who is part or all of the way through this procedure might stop being able to give consent, for example. But that's also true of any medical procedure that requires a general anesthetic. You can't just stop in the middle. At this point, it is assumed that giving consent before the procedure is enough. I don't see why this should be different.
Some transgender people have transitioned and change their mind. Is it possible this could happen here? Yes, but that doesn't make transgender surgery unethical and it also doesn't make this unethical. It means there is a responsibility for the person to decide that this is what they really want. We should try to make sure that people won't regret it later by giving them as many details as possible about the truth of the procedure. But ultimately it is a person's own decision what to do with their bodies, and I am uncomfortable with any law or philosophy that suggests anything else.
There is also the possibility of partial transitions, for example. People who are therian or otherkin have grown up in a human life and a human body, and though they might experience dysphoria, a lot of them also don't want to leave their human life and friends. They imagine an "anthro" form like a furry that would be part human and part their species. If it was possible to make some small changes to the human form that still kept the human mind, a lot of people would accept this.
As well, species dysphoria being recognized does not just bring the possibility of physical transition. It also brings the possibility of counseling and support groups that support our needs. If it does turn out that transition is impossible then people will need a lot of social and emotional support to help them to deal with that. That support won't be there if species dysphoria is not understood.